Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Alles um den VR-Motor (2.3 bis 3.6 und mehr).
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bullivr6
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Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von bullivr6 »

Hello VR6-guys. :3
I have already a VR6, like my nickname suggest, I have a bulli and I'm happy with it because I have already got a lot of useful info from you :buch: in this forum in order to mantain it well, and it works fine. =D

Now I have to ask you if you know where I could buy parts useful to build a VR6 that will be feeded mostly with LPG (autogas).
My family needs an off road car, the diesels are banned here and so I was thinking to the Touareg 1, because it's port injection and not direkt injection, so no particulate (for example, Germany will probably ban the TSI without BPF soon - see light blue vs dark blue feinstaubplakette).
The only problem is that this car should be a daily driver (10.000 km/year or more), and here they don't sell the 98 octane, while the 100 costs like 2 euro :irre: and the 95 (that's not good) is sold about at 1,5 euro: it is just too much expensive. :nosmile:
The LPG is a good option and will exclude forever such car from the future drive bans, but the stock VR6 doesn't tolerate it and I don't trust the lube, so I would like to build a VR6 but using dedicated parts: mostly, I would like to get stronger valves and stronger valve seats. The results should be a VR6 Ecofuel, like the R4 2.0 we found in the caddys and T5s.

The problem is that I searched for these parts in internet but I can't find them. I found only this site:

https://www.ms-motorservice.com/en/prod ... cessories/

I only found that they sell reinforced valve seats with the available sizes but I don't know if they will fit in the VR6 head because I don't know the correct size :( I need. And they don't sell reinforced valves :( for the VR6 (or at least I didn't find them).
Sadly, I checked the E**A and saw that the 2.0 Ecofuel valves are sized differently from the VR6.

So, do you know where I could get such stuff?
Thanks in advance for your attention.

Happy new year!
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designer2k2
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von designer2k2 »

Hello :)

im not shure why a LPG motor needs other valve/seats, but https://www.ng-motorsports.de/ should be able to make you about whatever you want :buch:

greetings
designer2k2.at
Golf 3 VR6 Syncro Kompressor für den Spaß, Golf 1 Cabrio zum Cruisen, A4 für den Alltag.
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wasmachen
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von wasmachen »

Mitn Gas hast mehr Temperatur.... oldschool Gasumrüstungen waren mWn mit anderen Auslassventilen.
Gasköpfe sollen auch früher und mehr Risse haben :braver:
Bevor Du bei dir selbst Depressionen oder ein geringes Selbstwertgefühl diagnostizierst, stelle erstmal sicher, dass Du nicht komplett von Arschlöchern umgeben bist..... :up:
bullivr6
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von bullivr6 »

mmmh....
honestly, I don't have notices about heads broken because of the autogas; the heads broke mostly because of manufacturing defects, like the very old vw R5 and R6 diesels with indirect injection and Ricardo pre-combustion chambres (see the T4's AAB "schiffdiesel", but the real nikname should be "schrottdiesel").
From what I know, the problem with the autogas are:
1) the late-in-time (??? approximative english =P ) combustion that increases the temperature because the engline has a smaller window of time between the end of combustion and the expulsion of the output gas, and
2) the fact that the autogas is very dry, so there is no lubrication and and cooling in the aspiration phase.
This makes the valve seats to deform and causes the valves to retire inside the head, but also makes the valves to deform.
Some say that if you use a direkt injection system that mixes up gasoline and autogas you should be fine, but the Prins' black list says differently... (at least about the VR6 24v 3.2L). Others say to add the lube distributor, but I don't trust it, cause some engines are in the list anyway, like the GM vortex.

Btw I too was sure that the most affected valves were the output ones, but I checked the E**A about the Ecofuel VW 2.0L and I found that only the input valves are different, with a different spare part number, while the output valves are the same of the normal 2.0L gasoline engine. So, unless they had changed the quality of the output valves for every engine without changing the numbers (it happens :irre: ), I suppose the output valves are all the same.
The valve seats are not listed so I think that you can't buy them and you can get them only integrated into a new/rebuilt head.
designer2k2 hat geschrieben: 31.12.2020, 09:08 Hello :)

im not shure why a LPG motor needs other valve/seats, but https://www.ng-motorsports.de/ should be able to make you about whatever you want :buch:

greetings
Thanks for the link, I will ask them, but I think that hardly a tuning shop has the kind of stuff to transform a VR6 from gasoline to autogas.

The fact that I didn't get many answers makes me think that I'm the only one who wants to use autogas in this forum,... LOL!!! Lucky you guys, you can get the 98 at 20c less than how much I pay the 95...
Here, feeding a Touareg VR6 with gasoline would be just crazy :( .
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wasmachen
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von wasmachen »

Nunja, Autogas ist hier bei uns quasi nicht verfügbar...

Habs jetzt ned ganz verstanden; hast du mal einen Gasanlagenhersteller zum Thema befragt? Das es nichts gibt, könnte ja auch eher der geringen Stückzahl geschuldet sein?

Bzw einen Motorenbauer; oder würdest du den Kopf komplett selber umbauen?
Dass es Ventilsitze org nicht zu kaufen gibt, ist klar. Du sollst ja den Kopf dann im AT erwerben....
Bevor Du bei dir selbst Depressionen oder ein geringes Selbstwertgefühl diagnostizierst, stelle erstmal sicher, dass Du nicht komplett von Arschlöchern umgeben bist..... :up:
SUVr6
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von SUVr6 »

Die bauen doch reihenweise um, Touareg, R32 und co. Denke nicht, dass da auch nur einer die Rübe umbaut.
bullivr6
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von bullivr6 »

wasmachen hat geschrieben: 01.01.2021, 12:29 Habs jetzt ned ganz verstanden; hast du mal einen Gasanlagenhersteller zum Thema befragt? Das es nichts gibt, könnte ja auch eher der geringen Stückzahl geschuldet sein?
Honestly, every small business that installs this type of autogas system will always say to you that "everything will be fine" :up: , but it will not be so :denk: .
Prins, which is an autogas systems maker, publishes a "black list" with all the engines that should not be transformed. The VR6 3.2 24v is one of them, because it gets the valves ruined before the first 100.000km. Don't expect Landi Renzo or BRC to tell you so... Believe me, for example, nissan (I don't know if the importer or the sellers, but you get it direcly from them) put the autogas in many Quashqai (did I write correct?). So, a friend of mine bought an used one with 35.000km at the odometer, full optional, about 1 years old or a little more. About at 70.000/80.000km the engine failed because of a blowing valve, which was not closing properly anymore.

The link I posted before brings to a supplier of valve seats that are reinforced for the autogas use, but there are available only some sizes expressed in raw measurements, sadly they don't tell you "this type is good for the EA 827, this other for the VR6". If they would sell the right size for the VR6, I would ask one of the many companies here that rebuild engines, to fit them during the head rebuilding process, but only if I get the right valves too. Asking the engines rebuilders here is pointless since they don't know the VR6 at all; I'm more competent than all them put together (not joking :( ).

TBH, I would have never expected to face these difficulties... As soon as the business will open after the holidays, I will ask the guys that Desiger2k2 suggested me.
Of course, if I don't find the parts I need, I will not do anything, strating from not buying the SUV.
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designer2k2
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Re: Building a LPG-proof VR6 24v 3.2

Beitrag von designer2k2 »

Maybe this company can help here too, they have some videos on youtube about gas converted cylinder heads: https://www.redhead-zylinderkopftechnik.de/

I assume that the intake valves get hotter as they are missing the cooling from the fuel, and the changed valve seats/guides help with more cooling?
designer2k2.at
Golf 3 VR6 Syncro Kompressor für den Spaß, Golf 1 Cabrio zum Cruisen, A4 für den Alltag.
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